Roy Thomas: Deposition 20 January 2023
Marvel Characters, Inc vs Larry Lieber and Estates of Don Heck and Steve Ditko
On 20 January, 2023, Roy Thomas sat down and gave yet another deposition for a Marvel Comics court case. It could be argued that he has given more depositions over the past two decades for comic book court cases than anyone, with only Mark Evanier giving him a run for his money. Now that a lot of the people who were present when relevant events happened at Marvel Comics have passed (Stan Lee, John Romita), and Larry Lieber is into his 90s, Roy will only be deposed more and more. This means going over the same ground, over and over.
For this case, which saw Marvel heading off any copyright terminations by the estates of Gene Colan, Don Heck, Don Rico and Steve Ditko, along with Larry Lieber (who is still alive), Roy’s testimony was vital for all concerned - unlike the Kirby case, he *was* there during this period of time, often as the Editor-in-Chief of Marvel Comics.
The full deposition has yet to be released, so here’s what we have now. Some 23,000+ words of Roy being grilled about what he remembers and what he knows. And, unlike most ‘expert’ witnesses, what Roy says is, for the most part, not hearsay. Roy was there.
NOTE: The deposition starts abruptly, and does jump a fair bit. This is due to missing pages. What was released, is complete here, and it does give a good insight into the working processes of Marvel Comics in the 1960s and 1970s. The deposition has been edited for clarity. This means repeated phrases such as ‘you know’ have been removed, along with repeated words and the like. All of the information has been retained, and none of the words, or sentences, have been altered. These are the words that were said. I have kept images to a minimum as this is one long deposition!
Enjoy!
(We enter the deposition in progress. The first few pages would have been devoted to introductions, the rules of the deposition and general housekeeping)
…exciting which is almost a contradiction. They were both adult and an exciting approach. It was very flattering to be offered a job by him. And just seemed more exciting to me to be with a small company instead of this large, departmented company where you had ten editors each with his own little cubicle.
Q: And you said that you admired so much what Stan was doing with the artists. What did you mean by that?
RT: Well, just the stories that came out, the characters they invented and their approach, which was to make them more human. They had more personality. Because of the artists they had, as well as Stan's direction, they were much more exciting than the DC Comics visually, because the artists, especially Kirby and Ditko, were just brilliant. I had been fans of them since a kid. And the combination of the three of them was, I felt, kind of revolutionizing comics. And to be a part of that was really interesting, even though I kind of liked DC's characters better in a way, so it was just a challenge.
Q: You mentioned Stan's direction, what was Stan Lee's position at Marvel Comics?
RT: His official position was editor and art director.
Q: And what did that mean to your understanding?
RT: Well, subject to the publisher, he was in charge of everything. He oversaw the writing; he oversaw the artists and the art that came in. Everything went through him with the help of the production manager in particular.
Q: You said, ‘subject to the publisher,’ that Stan Lee was in charge of everything, who was the publisher?
RT: Martin Goodman.
Q: And you also said that everything at Marvel Comics went through Stan Lee with the help of the production manager. Who was the production manager?
RT: Sol Brodsky through 1970.
Q: How long were you a staff writer at Marvel?
RT: Just a -- I don't know -- a couple of months, I guess, officially, but really the position began to evolve almost immediately. But officially, I was staff writer for a couple of months or so.
Q: What do you mean that the position began…
(page jump)
RT: And there was one woman there who was sort of working on commercial comics, I vaguely recall but she was gone in a couple weeks, and so was Steve within a month or two.
Q: And how about non-staff folks? Were there freelance artists and writers working with Marvel at this time?
RT: Yes. The freelance writers, mostly artists, were in and out of the office. Some of them never came in. They mailed everything from either Long Island or wherever, even though it was fairly close. Others came in once a week or whatever the occasion demanded. Some had sort of regular schedules, like Jack Kirby. Others had irregular schedules and just show up whenever it was time. But there were freelancers. And sometimes Sol would call a freelancer in, a letterer or an artist to come in, either because he had to keep an eye on him to make sure he finished the job on deadline or simply because they had something that had to be corrected or changed and they needed more work than just the one production person could do. And they would just sit there with a chair at a little rough desk, because we had so little equipment, and just do the best they could. But most of the artwork, of course, and writing was done outside the office, and they just came in occasionally.
Q: And did you watch Stan Lee and Sol Brodsky interacting with the freelancers and artists?
RT: Yes. Not all the time, but from time to time, Stan would want me to. If he did it in his office, of course, that was a closed office and I didn't see or hear. But if he called me in, I would sit there. And occasionally he did that. And he would call me in often to go over notes every morning, just about that he was in, which was usually three days a week or so.
(page jump)
RT: Sol Brodsky would stand on the right-hand and I on the left at this standing drawing board that Stan used for proofreading and talking, and he would tell us about the -- go over what he had written, what he had proofread and edited, with notes, mostly for Sol, and with a lot of asides to me because he wanted me to learn what he had done, why he had done it. It was really a teaching experience for me at the same time that he was giving Sol his production directions. That was an hour, usually an hour or so every morning.
Q: And understanding that there was, it sounds like, an evolution from being a staff writer to this editorial assistant, how were you compensated as an editorial assistant?
RT: I had my $110 a week salary.
Q: So that remained unchanged?
RT: I got a raise sometime by the end of the year another 10 or 15 dollars, but basically it was that, yes.
Q: In addition to being the editorial assistant, did you start doing other tasks for Marvel at this time?
RT: Yes. Well, the very first weekend after the day that he hired me, he gave me the about 20 pages of original art for a story of this character Millie the Model, which was kind of half humor, half romance, and I had to write dialogue for that over the weekend. It had been plotted by Stan with the artists, and I was to write dialogue. And that was kind of right away. That was my first freelance assignment. So even though I was staff writer from the beginning, I was allowed to do some of the work as freelance.
Q: And what do you mean that you were allowed to do it as a freelance assignment?
RT: I vouchered separately for that at a page rate.
Q: Do I understand you were paid separately and paid differently for a
RT: Yes. And it came on a different check.
Q: And how were you compensated for your freelance writing?
RT: You mean the rate or –
Q: Yes.
RT: Well, originally, I think it was $10 a page. It went up a little bit, but I think it was $10 a page at the time.
Q: And that was in addition to your salary, correct?
RT: Yes.
Q: And what were your responsibilities as a freelance writer?
RT: Just to write whatever Stan told me to write. At first, the first several things were mostly just writing dialogue for a couple of stories that he had worked on with the artists that had already been drawn. But of course, in a little while, I was being asked to plot the stories, too, upfront.
Q: And what do you mean you were asked to plot the stories upfront?
RT: Well, I was assigned to plot them by Stan. That was...
Q: When Stan would ask you, just for the layman here, when Stan would ask you to plot a story, what did the plotting process involve?
RT: It was to write out a page to several pages that would tell the basic story that the artist was to draw. It had little or no dialogue in it. That would have been my option. It mostly just told the actions, motivations, and left a lot of room for the artist to expand the action so that so there wouldn't be just talking heads. But we'd say there was a battle. But, I wouldn't necessarily give a lot of particulars about it. But it gave all the basic beats, you might say, of the story.
Q: You mentioned that your first freelance assignment, which was the very first weekend after you got hired, was for Millie the Model, I believe
RT: Yes.
Q: -- which was a half romance, half humor.
RT: Yes.
Q: Did you also do freelance writing for Marvel's superhero comics?
RT: In a little while. The first three things I did of the so-called superheroes, although I wrote them almost entirely outside staff time, I found out they were counted as part of my staff job, so I was not paid extra for them. I thought I would be, but I just misunderstood. Within a short time, after that change in jobs after those three stories, everything else was, of the writing, was freelance. Those are the only three stories I wrote on staff.
Q: And the first three stories that you wrote on staff for the superheroes, what were those, if you remember?
RT: Yes. Very vividly because they were real learning experiences. The first was to dialogue a story, plotted by Stan and written by Gene Colan, his first Iron Man stories, which was in Tales of Suspense Number 73. And while I don't remember the numbers of those, the next two were to dialogue stories that had been plotted and roughly penciled by Steve Ditko of Dr. Strange, two 10-page stories. Each of them was like a half a comic.
Q: Okay. We'll come back to some of these superhero comics in a little bit. this is 1965?
RT: Yes. September, October.
Q: And you testified earlier that you reported to Stan Lee for your salaried position, whether that was as a staff writer or as the editorial assistant; is that correct?
RT: Yes.
Q: And did you also report to Stan Lee as a freelance writer?
RT: Yes.
Q: Anyone else that you reported to?
RT: Well, a lot of it went through the production manager, Sol Brodsky. But I always understood that Sol was acting for Stan and that virtually anything he told me, or asked me to do, with his expression, ‘Do me a favor,’ basically it was as part of my job for Stan. He wasn't really like, my superior but he was speaking for him, so and we had no problems over that.
Q: And did there come a time at Marvel where your position changed again?
RT: Well, the next time was around the end of ‘66, turn of ’66 – ‘67 when Stan hired a second writer, a friend of mine from Missouri that I had suggested to him, who also took a writer's test, named Gary Friedrich, and Stan took the two of us out to lunch just to talk over things. Gary was fairly new at the company. And on the way there, Stan suddenly said, ‘Well, you know, we need some titles around here, I decided.’ He says, ‘Roy, from now on, you're the associate editor.’ I had never known what I was before that. And he said, ‘Gary, I guess, you're newer, so you're the assistant editor.’ That was how I learned what my new situation was. It didn't involve any kind of change, particularly. I mean, it was just doing more of the same kind of thing and maybe supervising Gary a bit.
Q: And who did you report to as the associate editor for Marvel Comics?
RT: To Stan.
Q: And were you still doing freelance writing for Marvel Comics when you were an associate editor?
RT: Yes.
Q: And your compensation structure remained the same, salaried for the editorial work, and per page rate for your freelance work?
RT: Yes.
Q: How long did you hold the title associate editor at Marvel?
RT: Until -- from that time until -- I don't know if it's spring or very early summer, exactly, of 1972, when Stan became publisher and president.
Q: I take it in 1972 Stan Lee got promoted?
RT: Yes.
Q: And you received a promotion as well?
RT: Yes, of sorts.
Q: Okay. And what position were you promoted into initially when Stan Lee got promoted to publisher and president of Marvel Comics?
RT: Stan liked to hold onto titles, or at least not give them out, so he promoted me to story editor, which although, again, I probably would have been dealing with art, but it was more to do with the story because he still…
(page jump)
Q: And you mentioned that there was an assistant art director. Who was that?
RT: His name was Frank Giacoia, who was an artist, mostly an inker.
Q: Okay. And when did, if you recall, Frank Giacoia join Marvel?
RT: Well, he had been a freelancer up to this time, off and on, also for DC Comics. He went back and forth. But he'd been in the field since the '40's. Early, middle '40s, certainly the latter '40s. And he had been working for Marvel off and on, bouncing between Marvel and DC almost ever since, Marvel becoming Marvel in the early '60s.
Q: What do you mean when Marvel became Marvel in the early 1960s?
RT: Well, Marvel had had very little identity as a company in the 1940s. Nobody, as a kid, nobody knew what to call it because they didn't have a symbol like DC, DC or others on the company. They had the term ‘Timely’, which was sort of the official name, but they almost never used it on the cover, except very rarely. They had a little shield symbol they used once or twice.
And then in the '50s, when Martin Goodman formed his own distribution company in the early '50s called Atlas, they put that symbol on the cover. And it was actually a distribution symbol, but because it was on all the comics, they sort of became known to the kids and the readers as Atlas Comics, but it was still Timely to the people who worked there.
And although they used the name Marvel on the covers in the late '40s on two different periods of six months to a year each -- and that's what I always called them in the late '40s from the age of 6, 7, 8 years old, I always thought of them as Marvel, but they didn't start using that term officially, as far as people were concerned, until 1963, so in '63. Although Martin Goodman had been using it as early as 1961 in letters of communication to retailers and so forth, through independent news, they referred to it as Marvel Comics, but they hadn't used it in the actual books until 1963. Marvel just took a while to find its identity as a title.
(page jump)
RT: Somewhere along the line, I did. It always lagged a little bit. But yeah, I just don't remember much about it. There was something, but it wasn't a lot, and it took a while, but that was all right. I wish I could give you more exact numbers, but I just don't recall. But there were raises all along the way both in freelance and in staff.
Q: And at a high level, can you tell me what your responsibilities were as editor-in-chief at Marvel starting in '72?
RT: Well, because Stan was such a hands-on kind of person and not really a businessman as such, he kept more of probably an active quasi editorial presence as publisher, say, than most publishers would have. But increasingly I had to handle the matters of not necessarily doing, but overseeing all the proofreading, the handing out of assignments to artists and writers. Stan still handled the artists a little more because that was a special interest of him and he felt he had a special insight into that, he felt. But really, otherwise, I was just in charge of all the artists, the writers, the colorists, the letterers and so forth. I suppose, technically, over the production manager, but I wanted him to stay in his own court, do his own job. I didn't want to get involved with all the scheduling.
Q: You said technically over the production manager.
RT: Yes.
Q: You mean you were supervising the production manager?
RT: I suppose, in a vague, technical way. Actually, we just worked as a nice team with both by this time it was John Verpoorten, and we were good friends and he had his area and I had mine, so it almost wasn't a question. The real problem had been the art director and I needed authority over the art director, or I couldn't tell him what to do if I was just his equal.
Q: And when you became editor-in-chief, who did you report to at that point?
RT: Stan Lee.
Q: And when you got promoted into editor-in-chief, did you take over the -- formally, the responsibilities of the assistant art director, or you just started supervising that individual?
RT: Basically, supervising him. That particular person wasn't there much longer, but suddenly he was reporting to me instead of having to report to Stan.
Q: And who took over as the assistant art director from Frank Giacoia?
RT: We didn't really have one for a while. The unofficial art director was the artist John Romita, who had actually been hired more to draw comics, but because he was there in the office and he was so good at it and he understood what Stan wanted, we thought of him as the art director, and Stan kind of treated him that way, even though it took a while. It was several years, I think, before he actually got that title.
Q: How long did you act as Marvel Comics' editor-in-chief?
RT: About two to two and a half years. I quit right before Labor Day, and I was around for another two or three weeks until my replacements came back from vacation, so it was September of '74.
Q: And during the time period that we've been discussing, 1965 through 1974, did you have an employment agreement with Marvel?
RT: I had no written employment. It was all verbal with Stan Lee on behalf of the company.
Q: Prior to 1974, you didn't have a written employment agreement with Marvel, but you had an oral agreement with Stan Lee on behalf of the company; is that right?
RT: Yes.
Q: Okay. And to your understanding, were there any conditions that were imposed on you as a result when you accepted, for example, a writing assignment from Marvel?
RT: Well, I understood when I came into the company that Marvel would own the characters, the stories, the writing, whatever I was doing, and that was also made clear by the statement on the back of the check from the earliest days.
Q: And that was the statement that was on the back of the checks that you received as a freelance writer?
RT: Yes. I don't know if it was on the staff checks or not. It may have even been on those. I don't recall. I think it was on the staff checks, too, but I could be wrong on that.
Q: And did you understand whether your agreement with Marvel allowed Marvel to request that you, for example, do rewrites or revisions to work that you had done?
RT: Yes, I did.
Q: And did you understand whether your agreement with Marvel allowed them to request revisions within the per-page rate that you were being paid as a freelance writer?
Q: I asked you a minute ago, did you understand whether your agreement with Marvel allowed Marvel to request that you do rewrites or revisions to work that you had done, and you answered ‘Yes, I did.’
RT: Yes.
(page jump)
Q: What was your understanding?
RT: I'm sorry.
Q: What was your understanding -- did Marvel have the right to request revisions?
RT: Oh, yes.
Q: And what's the basis, Mr. Thomas, for your understanding that Marvel had the right to request revisions?
RT: Because Stan did it from the very start, from the Millie the Model story that I brought in after the first weekend where he both did summary writing himself, and he asked me to rewrite things. And then very quickly, on other issues of that kind but also on the Iron Man and Dr. Strange stories at the beginning, he had me write. One of the Dr. Strange credits says, ‘Written and rewritten by Roy Thomas.’ Stan wrote that. It was very, very true. It was a teaching thing, and he didn't just want me to rewrite it for me. He wanted me to learn to rewrite it until I pleased him. That was my job. My whole job was to please Stan.
Q: And during the some 20 years that we've been discussing, did you also see Stan Lee ask other freelance writers to do revisions to their work?
RT: Yes.
Q: Did you also see Stan Lee ask freelance artists to do revisions to their work?
RT: Yes. Of course, I heard about this through the production manager more than I saw Stan doing it, but sometimes I was there when Stan actually did it, and sometimes I would just know it because it would go through the production manager and his department and, of course, I'd know it that way, too.
Q: And when Stan asked you to do revisions to your work, I take it you complied with that request?
RT: Yes.
Q: And I take it when Stan Lee asked other freelance writers and artists to make revisions to their work, you observed them also comply with that request, correct?
RT: I never knew anyone to refuse.
Q: And during this time period that we've been talking about, did you also observe Marvel whether that was yourself, Stan Lee, Sol Brodsky, or others actually making changes to work that had been done by freelance writers and artists?
RT: Yes. Both lettering and artwork.
Q: Okay. I'd like to return to something you testified about a moment ago. You said that you understood that when you came into the company that Marvel would own the characters, the stories, the writing, whatever that you were doing. recall that testimony?
RT: Yes.
(page jump)
Q: Okay. I'd like to go ahead and show you a document, which has been premarked as Exhibit 65, which has been Bates stamped 2021MARVEL-74335. (Exhibit Number 65, Alter Ego magazine, ‘Roy Thomas on Marvel in the 1970s!’)
RT: I recognize this.
(page jump)
RT: Jim Amish, yes.
Q: You see that Jim Amish asks you how often you were pitching ideas for series at Marvel
RT: Yes.
Q: -- do you see that?
RT: Yes, yes.
Q: Okay. And you can see that you respond, ‘Good question’?
RT: Yes.
Q: Okay. And can you read that paragraph for me which follows?
RT: ‘Not that often, because Stan was really the guy who generated the ideas, and I don't think he pushed us to come up with new characters in the early days, except for villains. If something came up, he was open to it. As I've often said, I didn't like creating many characters for Marvel, because I knew I wouldn't own them...not that I advertised that feeling to Stan or to Goodman.’
Q: And is that accurate, Mr. Thomas?
RT: Yes. The prior part I hadn't really pitched Conan to Stan Lee and everything, exactly, but I did pitch things, just -- that has nothing to do with the statement. The statement is accurate.
(Covering letter for Roy’s Conan the Barbarian syndicated strip deal with Marvel
Q: And with respect to your statement that you knew that you wouldn't own the characters that you worked on at Marvel, is that accurate?
RT: Yes.
Q: Okay. You mentioned that you stepped down as editor-in-chief around Labor Day of 1974.
RT: Yes.
Q: And why did you step down, Mr. Thomas?
RT: I had become increasingly restive about doing having to do less creative work and more of just management, putting out fires and that kind of thing, and so I was less and less happy with the position after a couple of years. And then finally, and management, not just so much Stan but the person who had taken over the job of president when Stan gave it up, and I did not see eye to eye on various things. He didn't feel I was enough of a company man, to use his phrase. And the particular thing was just a particular policy of Stan's that I decided I would not carry out.
Q: And when you stepped down as editor-in-chief, did you start working for another company?
(page jump)
Q: And did Stan Lee accept that proposal by you on behalf of Marvel Comics?
RT: After about 20 minutes.
Q: And, do I understand that when you transitioned from editor-in-chief to a writer/editor position, you didn't have to answer to Marvel Comics' new editor-in-chief?
RT: No. I cooperated with him, but I was not subject to them. Their books were entirely my decision as to what to do and what to do with them, as long as Stan didn't overrule me.
Q: Let's look at another document which we will mark as Exhibit 71, which is Bates stamped 2021MARVEL-88673.
RT: Okay.
Q: Do you recognize what's been marked as Exhibit 71?
RT: Yes, I do.
Q: What is it?
(The first page of Roy Thomas’s 1974 employee contract with Marvel Comics)
RT: It is my contract by -- what I refer to as my writer/editor contract with Marvel Comics as of September 1, 1974.
Q: Was this your first written agreement with Marvel Comics?
RT: Yes.
Q: On the very last page, Mr. Thomas, you can see that there is a signature there above Roy Thomas; do you see that?
RT: Yes.
Q: Is that your signature?
RT: Yes, it is.
Q: Can I turn you to paragraph 4(b) of the agreement
RT: Okay.
Q: which is entitled Editorial Stipulations.
RT: 4(b), right.
Q: Do you see it provides that, quote, ‘Selection as to the magazines or features written by Employee’ -- And that's a reference to you, correct?
RT: Yes.
Q: ‘…by Marvel, as well as of the artists, letterers, and colorists thereof, shall be determined by employee, subject only to the discretion of the publisher of Marvel.’
(page jump)
Q: To your understanding, did any other writers with Marvel have the ability to select which comics they were going to work on prior to you obtaining this provision in 1974?
RT: No.
Q: And to your understanding, did any artists doing assignments for Marvel have the ability to select which comics they were going to work on prior to you obtaining this provision in '74?
RT: No.
Q: You also, under this provision, had the ability to select which artists, letterers, and colorists you were going to work with, correct?
RT: Yes, I did.
Q: Under your 1974 agreement with Marvel, did you have the ability to select which artists, letterers, and colorists you were going to work with?
RT: I did have that right, as long as Stan did not object.
Q: It was subject to him. And to your understanding, did any other writers at Marvel have the ability to select which artists, letterers, or colorists they were going to be working with?
RT: Not at that time.
Q: To your understanding, were there any other writers at Marvel at this time, or prior to this time, who were not subject to the editorial discretion of the editor-in-chief at Marvel?
RT: No, no.
Q: And to your understanding, were there any artists at Marvel at this time, or prior to this time, who were not subject to the editorial discretion of the editor-in-chief at Marvel?
RT: No, there were not.
Q: To your understanding at this time, were you subject to Stan Lee's continued supervision and discretion?
RT: Yes.
Q: And to your understanding, was there anyone working with Marvel on a freelance basis or otherwise during the time period 1965 through 1974 that was not subject to Stan Lee's discretion?
RT: No.
Q: And had you ever heard of anyone prior to this time, including even prior to 1965 of somebody working with Marvel that was not subject to Stan Lee's supervision and discretion?
RT: Not since he had come to work there.
Q: And when did Stan Lee come to work with Marvel?
RT: I'm trying to think. It was about the -- I think it was about the end of 1940, something like that. And then but then he was gone between two and three years in service from '42 to '45 and someone else was there during that interim. But whenever he was there, he was in charge.
Q: How long did you work with Marvel as a writer/editor?
RT: Six years.
Q: So that takes us up to 1980; is that right, Mr. Thomas?
RT: Yes, it was two, three-year contracts, uh-huh.
Q: And what did you do in 1980?
RT: I quit.
Q: And did you continue to work in the comics industry in 1980 after leaving Marvel?
RT: Yes.
Q: And why did you quit in 1980?
RT: A severe dislike for the latest editor-in-chief and feeling he had lied to me in various capacities while I was preparing a third contract. I decided to accept offers from DC Comics instead.
Q: And who was the editor-in-chief that you're referring to?
RT: Jim Shooter.
Q: And I take it you had disagreements with Mr. Shooter over the terms of your continued work with Marvel; is that fair?
RT: Yes.
(Roy’s last contract with Marvel for the 1970s. He would leave Marvel at the end of this deal due to conflicts with Jim Shooter)
Q: And you then joined DC Comics; is that right?
RT: Yes, under contract.
Q: And how long were you at DC?
RT: Under contract, six years. Two three-year contracts.
Q: What was your position at DC?
RT: Initially, I was a writer. I got various editorial things added over the time, both informally -- the second contract may have had something written into it. I don't recall. But I was sort of named a sort of writer/editor again later after two or three more years more informally.
Q: And let me circle back to when you first had a written agreement with Marvel starting in 1974. You testified previously that you understood when you joined Marvel, that Marvel would have all of the rights to the characters and stories that you worked on. Did that remain true to your understanding under your 1974 agreement?
RT: Yes.
Q: And you mentioned that you had two other written agreements with Marvel following the 1974 agreement; is that right?
RT: No. One other. There were two three-years.
Q: Two, three-years. Got it.
(page jump)
Q: Did you have the understanding for the entire tenure that you worked with Marvel that Marvel would have all of the rights, including copyrights and anything that you worked on at Marvel?
RT: Yes.
Q: At any point in time during your tenure with Marvel, from 1965 through 1980, did your understanding regarding Marvel's ownership of all rights with respect to your work change?
RT: No.
Q: Mr. Thomas, are you still doing freelance comic writing?
RT: Yes, a little.
Q: And, do I understand correctly that you've been acting -- or doing freelance writing in the comics industry from 1965 through today?
RT: Freelance, whenever it wasn't under the contract, yeah, it was either by contract or freelance, yes. And diminishing amounts over the years as I got older and company policies changed and I got other interests, et cetera.
Q: Over the years, which comic companies have you done comic writing for?
RT: The main two in terms of volume have been, by far, Marvel Comics. Second would be DC because I had the six-year contracts and I did more writing for them for another year or two after that, and occasional things after -- occasional freelance writing after that. I've also worked for any number…
(page jump)
Q: Okay. And I'm going to refer to the time period of 1962 to 1975 as the relevant time period, okay?
RT: I understand that, yes.
Q: Okay. And even if I don't specifically use the term, quote/unquote, relevant time period in my question, please understand that my questions refer to that period today unless I tell you otherwise, okay?
RT: Yes.
Q: And now can you please remind us, when did you work for Marvel during the relevant time period, again with the relevant time period being ‘62 to '75?
RT: From the middle of 1965 through the end of that period and beyond.
Q: And over that time period, from '65 through 1975, can you remind us what positions you held at Marvel?
RT: All right. Staff writer, editorial assistant or associate editor, editor-in-chief, and then writer/editor, besides the freelance writer, which was the unofficial position, but that was something extra during the years before, around 1974.
(page jump)
Q: When you say, ‘a few months later,’ you mean a few months after Tales of Suspense, which has been marked as Exhibit 72, you're aware that Don Rico worked on a comic for Marvel whereby he used his given name Don Rico; is that right?
RT: Yes. I think it was after, rather than I'd have to check to be sure, but the same general time period, within a year, yes.
Q: And regardless of who N. Korok is, based on your understanding of how comics at Marvel were produced in the 1960s, do you have any understanding of whether Stan Lee would have had authority over the dialogue that appears in Exhibit 72? (editor note: N. Korok was a pen name of Don Rico at Marvel)
RT: Yes.
Q: And what is that understanding?
RT: He had complete authority over it, so to edit it, have it rewritten or whatever. We all work for him.
Q: And--
RT: Not at that time yet.
Q: Yeah. And same question, based on your understanding of how comics at Marvel were produced in the 1960s, do you have an understanding of whether Stan Lee, on behalf of Marvel, would have had authority over the artwork that appears in Exhibit 72?
RT: Yes.
Q: And what is that understanding, Mr. Thomas?
RT: Subject to the publisher, complete authority.
Q: And ‘the publisher,’ you're referring to who?
RT: Martin Goodman.
Q: Thank you. You can put that aside. Now, are you also aware that some of Gene Colan's kids are seeking to terminate purported grants to Marvel on comics that Gene Colan worked on during the relevant period?
RT: Yes, I am.
Q: And did you know Gene Colan?
RT: Yes.
Q: And how did you know Gene Colan?
RT: He was drawing for Marvel as a freelancer when I came to work there and had been for six months or so, again had worked for them previously in the '40s. And I got to know him. We socialized…
(page jump)
Q: Okay, thank you. And you're also aware that Steve Ditko's brother is seeking to terminate purported grants to Marvel on comics that Steve Ditko worked on during the relevant time period, correct?
RT: Yes.
Q: Okay. And did you know Steve Ditko?
RT: Yes. Less well than the others, but I did know him, and we talked, and he was at a party at my house even once or twice, and I ran into him on the street once or twice and so forth back in that period.
Q: And did you work on any comics at Marvel with Steve Ditko during the relevant time period?
RT: Yes. The second and third hero-type stories I did were to dialogue two Dr. Strange stories that he had plotted and roughly penciled at that stage.
Q: Now today I may refer to Larry Lieber, Don Heck, Don Rico, Gene Colan, and Steve Ditko as ‘the defendant contributors.’ Will you understand if I use the term ‘defendant contributors’
RT: Yes.
Q: -- that I'm referring to those five?
RT: Yes.
Q: Mr. Thomas, you testified that you worked on two Dr. Strange stories with Steve Ditko; is that correct?
RT: Yes.
Q: Okay. I'd like to show you what I'm going to go ahead and mark as Exhibit 73.
RT: Oh, yes.
Q: Do you recognize Exhibit 73.
RT: Oh, yes.
Q: What is it?
RT: The top page is a letter I wrote to my friend Jerry Bails, who was a college professor who started the magazine Alter Ego with my help. I was writing him on Marvel stationary to send him the notes, I would call them, on the Steve Ditko story because he liked to collect art or scripts from comic books of any kind, and rather than giving him the finished script of the dialogue, he'd rather see Steve Ditko's notes on the story because it was such a different way of doing comics from what he was used to.
Q: Okay. The first page, that's your handwriting?
RT: That's my letter in my handwriting, yes.
Q: Okay. When did you write this letter to Mr. Bails?
RT: Well, it's dated, so I assume October 28, someone's added the year, which would have been 1965.
Q: Is that consistent with your recollection --
RT: Yes.
Q: -- of when you wrote the letter?
RT: Yes, it is.
Q: Okay. And in the letter, am I reading your handwriting correctly where you say that: ‘Thought you might like a souvenir. Ditko's plot for first Dr. Strange tale I did.’ Do you see that?
RT: Yes. The word ‘plot’ is probably, it was or his notes about his plot, it was just a short form, I guess, of saying it, but it really told what was going on, so I just referred to it as the plot.
Q: Okay.
RT: Which is all I ever got besides the artwork.
Q: Okay. And prior to that, in the letter you say: ‘Am at work, in middle of a Patsy & Hedy comic book which Stan doesn't even bother to read now, along with the last Millie. He's made me semi-official ‘editor’ of those two books a month - three titles.’ Do you see that?
RT: Yes.
Q: Did I correctly read that?
RT: Yes.
Q: Okay. Which books were you referring to when you say, ‘Stan doesn't even bother to read them now’?
RT: The titles were Patsy and Hedy, Millie the Model, and the other one was Modeling with Millie which was the second bimonthly book with the same character.
Q: And were any of those superhero books?
RT: No.
Q: Okay. Let's turn -- flip the page. And can you tell me what the balance of the document is, please.
RT: Yes. It alternates between a copy of the typewriter sheet page that I was given along with Steve Ditko's original penciled art for this Dr. Strange story. These were his notes with a couple of words just to make sure, since they were very, very rough pencil since he was going to ink it, they told me basically what was going on so I wouldn't have to try to make sure I so I would make sure I knew what was going on exactly and wouldn't get something wrong in the story.
Q: And the artwork that we see on page -- for example, 274, is that reflective of the detail of the pencils that you received from Steve Ditko?
RT: Well, this is the finished artwork inked. What I got was much rough, the figures were like little ballons and you could tell what the hands and arms were, that there was a little bit of background and so forth. But it was very sketchy. If he were not going to ink the story, he would have done it in more detail. But since he was going to ink it, he only needed enough for him and me to be able to see. This was actually first done with the idea that Stan would write it.
Q: Why do you say that this was first done with the idea that Stan would write it?
RT: Because Stan had been writing for the last year or so, Stan had been the scripter of all the Dr. Strange stories.
Q: Who, if anyone, asked you to become the writer on this Dr. Strange story?
RT: Stan Lee.
Q: And did you have an understanding of who decided who would be the artist on the -- this Dr. Strange story?
RT: Well, I knew that Stan had decided that Steve Ditko would. beginning. He had been doing it since the…
(page jump)
Q: And what was the basis for your understanding that Stan Lee had decided that Steve Ditko would work on this comic?
RT: Stan made all the artist assignments.
Q: And was that true over the entirety of the relevant period, that is 1962 to '75 to your understanding?
RT: Yes. Sometimes the production manager would make certain inking decisions because, they would always be subject to Stan. Even if they were made, they were made in Stan's name, and they could be canceled or changed if Stan wanted that.
Q: And when we see the words on page 273 which is the second page of the exhibit, ‘Found place to hide. Must move fast.’ Do you see that?
RT: Oh, this, yes. That's Steve's writing, yes.
Q: And what did that mean to you?
RT: Well, it was in the middle of a story I continued from the preceding month's story, so I had that to look at, too, with all written and drawn out. Dr. Strange was fleeing some enemies of his. He was kind of trussed up, and so forth, with his body. He was trying to find a place for his body, his physical body to hide so that his enemies couldn't find him and destroy him. And he had to send out his astral self since he was a sorcerer to find a hiding place for him. It was just to convey a sense of, not just what he was doing, but that there was a sense of urgency.
Q: And does that correspond to the drawings that follow on page 274?
RT: Yes. I added different things to it as I was fleshing it out, but sort of took that and just did whatever I felt I should do with it.
Q: And you can see on page 274 the credit box?
RT: Yes.
Q: And based on your working on this comic issue, are those credits accurate?
RT: Yes.
Q: And it says, for example, ‘Edited and rehashed by Stan Lee.’ What does that mean to you?
RT: Well, besides being the editor of a…
(page jump)
Q: Understanding that this comic that we're looking at was at the beginning of your tenure with Marvel, to your understanding, did Stan Lee retain the ability to ask you to make revisions to your work during the entirety of the relevant time period?
RT: Yes.
Q: Okay. We can put that one aside, thank you. Did Steve Ditko -- did there come a time when Steve Ditko stopped working with Marvel after you arrived in '65?
RT: Yes.
Q: And when was that?
RT: I'm not sure exactly. It was near the end of the year. Either right before or after Christmas. Sometime within a few weeks of Christmas, I think, but it was near the end of the year.
(page jump)
RT: -- the end of the '60s. '69, '70. Before that, I had worked with him for about a year or so on Dr. Strange, and that, too, was another year. And again, I don't have any memory. That was where the cover was that Martin Goodman didn't like, but I don't have any memory of ever rejecting, or Stan, who was then the official editor, ever rejecting any of his work on that or very many things.
Q: Okay. And I'd like to try to get a sense of the volume of comics that Marvel is producing per year. In the 1960s, let's say, when you joined, how many superhero -- second half of the '60s, how many superhero comics was Marvel publishing a month?
RT: There were around eight or so. Not counting the westerns and the Millie the Model stuff. There were around eight, all of which pretty much, by that stage, Stan had taken back the writing of.
Q: Okay. So about eight or so per month?
RT: Yeah, a month.
Q: Superhero comics?
RT: Yeah, yeah.
(page jump)
RT: …it would refer to the pencil artist as kind of a sloppier, shorthand usage because that was the primary artist, but it really meant ‘the penciler,’ generally speaking. We would say the artist, as opposed to the inker, but that was just imprecise terminology is what we did.
Q: And once the pencil artist finished drawing out the plot, what was the next step in the process?
RT: For him to get it into the office, or to the writer by whatever method we were doing.
Q: And what happened at that point?
RT: The writer took it and wrote the dialogue and the captions and indicated the balloons on the at that time, on the original art as well.
Q: And what if the writer on the comic was not Stan Lee, was Stan Lee involved at all at this stage?
RT: Yes. He was the editor. His name was always on there as editor, or later, ‘Presents...’ or something, but it always indicated he was the editor. He was always the ultimate authority unless Martin Goodman stepped in, and that was mostly on covers.
Q: And other than having his name actually listed as the editor on the comics, would Stan Lee, for example, review the artwork when it came in?
RT: Yes. Stan really liked to look at the artwork, even if he wasn't going to write the comic. At first, he felt he should. That was his duty. He wanted to make sure. He didn't have faith total faith in me or anybody else. And so he would review all of it. There might be something that got slipped by him once in a while, but that was -- but in general, that was his practice, yes.
Q: And what was your understanding of why Stan Lee reviewed the artwork?
RT: Well, he was the editor, so it was his job to supervise. If something went wrong, the publisher wasn't going to go to the artist, he was going to go to Stan Lee, not me or his artist. And secondly, he felt that both over the years, and in particular in recent years since Marvel got started, he felt he had a particular expertise, over knowing what the book should look like and feel like. And while he felt I had some of that, he didn't trust anybody naturally as much as himself, so he wanted to see it all and be responsible for it all.
Q: And did -- to your understanding, did Stan Lee continue to review artwork even after he became publisher?
RT: Yes.
Q: And --
RT: A little less, but he still reviewed most things, certainly anything of any importance at all.
Q: And to your understanding, did Stan Lee have the ability to ask artists to make changes to their artwork?
RT: Yes.
Q: And to your understanding, did Stan Lee have the ability to just have changes made to the artwork without the artist's involvement?
RT: Yes, if he wanted to.
Q: Based on your experience working at Marvel, did artists comply with Stan Lee's request to make changes to their artwork?
RT: Yes, yes.
(page jump)
Q: …artists to make changes to their artwork?
RT: Yes. Not nearly as much as Stan did, but I did it, yes, when I felt it was necessary or advisable.
Q: Okay. You testified that the artwork comes in, it's reviewed, changes may be requested, and the writer would add the dialogue in the bubbles; is that --
RT: Yes.
Q: Okay. And what happens after all of that has occurred at Marvel?
RT: The next step is led to the letterer who generally lettered it in ink, right, directly on the page. The first ink on the page was generally the letterers. That was the next step.
Q: And what do you mean by lettering?
RT: Looking at the writer's script, which was generally on a separate, typed page, and transferring that over to letter that, in all capital letters in those days, directly on the page in the general balloon area where the writer had indicated for the captions, the whatever. Of course, the writer sometimes misjudged how much space it would take and so forth, so we had to have letterers that understood the whole process and could fit things in or know when there was a problem.
Q: And in your experience, would Stan also look at where the bubbles had been placed on the pages?
RT: Mostly in the early days of some writer, me in particular because I worked so closely with him, and a little bit with other people. More and more, that was left to me, because one of the things that he saw that I had right away is that I had a very good understanding of how to place balloons.
And some writers didn't, because they're not artists. I wasn't either. But they wouldn't quite know the idea. Stan did not want all the balloons placed at the top of the page as more standard in comics. He wanted to be able to put some in other spots to cover up dead areas, and that way he could get an extra few words in to give a little more personality to things. And some of the writers would cover up too much space or something. And some of them were very good and some of them were not so good. But we were kind of desperate, and we just kept trying to tell them to be a little better and do the best we could, and it mostly worked out.
Q: And after the letterer does -- applies the lettering to the artwork, what happened next?
RT: Well, either directly through the mail or through the office, it went to the inker, which usually was not the same pencil. It could be, but like as with Ditko, but it was usually not the same person.
Q: And who decided who would do the inking on a comic issue?
RT: Well, the ultimate person was Stan, or later me as editor-in-chief if Stan didn't disagree. Sometimes in some areas the production manager would make that based on who was available and, what a deadline was, because he pretty well knew his artists. And Stan would like them. If there was any kind of question, he would check with me or with Stan because we were, at various times, the ultimate authority on it.
Q: And what did the inkers do?
RT: They applied ink to the line. And it wasn't necessarily just going over the line, some of them did more, some of them did less. They embellished it more, gave it a more illustrative look, this or that. Sometimes we even asked them to redraw a little something simple. We didn't want to do that much because they were being paid as inkers. But once in a while, ‘Can you fix this hand’ or ‘Do this and that,’ or something like that. But mostly it was just inking what was there and adding a little embellishment and feeling to it.
Q: Okay. And when the work comes back from the inker, comes back to the office; is that correct?
RT: Yes.
Q: Okay. And what happens then?
RT: Then it would be proofread.
Q: And who did the proofreading?
RT: Well, in the early days, Stan did the original proofreading on pretty much everything, but he gradually relinquished some of that to me. He always proofread his own stuff and major things. He stopped proofreading most of my stuff after the first few months. He would read the first and last page and said if that was okay, he figured the rest and the middle was okay. It depends. Sometimes it was a spot-check kind of thing. He'd let it go but then suddenly he'd look over something because he just wanted to check and see how things were going. And later on, by the time I was editor-in-chief, we would have another assistant editor, too, who would be doing the proofreading and if I hadn't read it, they'd at least be doing backup proofreading. It was various combinations, depending on what the book was, who the artist was, et cetera.
Q: And could Stan Lee or yourself make changes to the artwork at this stage of the process?
RT: Yes.
Q: And could you ask that the artist, whether that was the pencilers or the inkers, make changes to the artwork at that part?
RT: Yes, or to have a production artist do it. But as quite often, we didn't want to have to call the original artist to come in maybe from Long Island or somewhere. We lost time, he lost work time and so forth. We tried to do it without dragging people inasmuch as we could.
Q: And same question with respect to the writing or the lettering, could Marvel make changes to the wording/dialogue at this stage in the process?
RT: Yes. Of course, it was more trouble once it's once it's lettered because then it's time and money to have it re-lettered. And your office letterer would probably not be quite as good as the person who did the lettering originally. So again, you had to take all these things into consideration.
Q: And -- okay. So what happens after either yourself or Stan Lee approves the comic?
RT: Well, at around this same time, because of the looming deadline at all times, the artwork would be photostatic, or whatever the precise process was, into copies for the colorist. This was done at a smaller size, more like typing paper size. And the colorist would color that, actually do the coloring with these various old dyes to indicate. And then in addition, in those days, mark on with numbers what the color was to make sure they would be interpreted by the people who were actually then making the plates. It would say like Y3, which would be a particular like light tone of yellow, as opposed to Y, which is the straight yellow, that kind of thing.
Q: Okay.
RT: That was being done while the other processes were going on once the artwork arrived.
Q: And the folks that were adding the color, did they have a name like the folks applying the ink were inkers?
RT: We just called them colorists, yeah.
Q: And to your knowledge, Mr. Thomas, is the process that we just went through, the same general system -- that is plot, pencils, dialogue, lettering, inking, coloring -- was that process or system followed at Marvel during the relevant time period?
RT: Yes. Some what we sometimes called ‘script in advance’ or ‘full script method,’ came in especially on something like the horror stories that were shorter stories and occasionally other things where some writers or some artists felt more comfortable getting a full script instead of doing it the other way. Again, the writer was still the initial person in all that. But we kind of discouraged that on the superhero thing. We preferred to have those done by the so-called ‘Marvel method’ of plot, then pencils, then dialogue, because we felt…
(page jump)
Q: Okay. Mr. Thomas, you testified earlier that you were paid a salary when you were -- for your editorial responsibilities and staff writing responsibilities at Marvel; is that correct?
RT: Yes.
Q: Okay. And you also testified that you were separately paid on a per-page basis for your freelance writing assignments from Marvel --
RT: Yes.
Q: -- during the relevant time period, correct?
RT: Yes.
Q: Okay. How was that per-page rate set?
RT: Stan had to have Martin Goodman's approval for that or for any raise but otherwise it was his decision.
Q: And I believe you testified that you were paid by check; is that right?
RT: Yes. I think the freelance and staff checks were separate, but they were all both checks.
Q: Okay. And how would you receive your freelance checks from Marvel?
RT: Somebody came down and handed them out at the office, on Friday. I don't remember if the freelance was every week or every other week or something, but I think the staff was every week and so forth, so they were just kind of overlapping. Some weeks I got freelance and some I didn't.
Q: Okay. And how about your salary checks, how did you receive those?
RT: That was a check handed to me at the office.
Q: Who would hand you your checks?
RT: I think it was some executive from Magazine Management or he might have given it to Sol Brodsky and Sol handed them out. It probably varied. As long as I got the check, I almost didn't remember.
Q: Do you recall who the payer on your checks was during the 1960s?
RT: Well, as far as I knew, I think it was Magazine Management, which is the overall name of the company which I had never heard before I went to work for them.
Q: And you testified previously that you recalled that at least some of the checks you received contained language on the back of them?
RT: Yes.
Q: Do you recall what that legend said? And if it varied over time, please let me know.
RT: I think there might have been a couple of versions. What they all amounted to was paraphrase in some way, I don't know, but basically it was saying that I was signing this check, and I had no ownership or claim on anything I had done for the company and so forth. It was just a legalese way of saying that as far as I could wade through it.
Q: Do you have a copy of any of your checks you received from Marvel during the relevant time period?
RT: Sadly, no.
Q: And did you receive royalties on the sale of any comic books that you worked on in the '60s or '70s from Marvel?
RT: No.
Q: Do you receive profit participation on the -- for the sale of comics that you worked on in the '60s or '70s?
RT: No.
Q: Was the financial success of any work that you contributed to a factor in your compensation at Marvel during the relevant time period?
RT: Only indirectly. If I was selling comics fairly well at least and doing what they wanted me to do, there would be a raise or some years, a bonus, depended on overall sales.
Q: But other than that, no?
RT: No.
Q: You got paid the same whether the comic was a hit or a flop; is that right?
RT: Per page at the time, yes.
Q: And if a comic that you worked on lost money from Marvel, Marvel didn't take that out of your paychecks, right?
RT: No.
Q: Were you provided with the sales figures for the books that you did freelance writing on?
RT: Stan would show them to me from time to time as time went on. In the early days, not so much, later I began to see some of them. I usually didn't get my own individual copies of them. Maybe I did later when I was editor-in-chief. I don't recall that much about it, but he would show me or mention to me particular things, and more as time went on.
Q: As you progressed up into the ranks?
RT: Yes, yes. As he got more interested in giving me more authority or responsibility, he wanted me to know more about them.
Q: Did you see the figures what Marvel paid for rent, salary, page rates, distribution, all those things?
RT: No. I only had little bits and pieces of information I knew from individual people, but no, there was no systematic way of showing me that.
Q: And how about other freelance writers during the relevant time period, is it your understanding that they were also paid on a per-page rate?
RT: Yes.
Q: And same question with respect to freelance artists, how were they paid during the relevant period?
RT: There was a page rate for penciling, for inking, separate rates. Or if they did them both, they got the same. was a page rate.
Q: Colorists and letterers were also paid on a per-page rate; is that correct?
RT: Yes.
Q: And to your understanding, did any freelance contributors at Marvel during the 1960s get paid royalties or other profit participation on the comics that they worked on?
RT: I'm not aware of any. I thought not.
Q: And did the -- to your understanding, did the per-page rate that Marvel agreed to pay the freelancers, did that include any revisions that were requested by Marvel?
RT: It was just a flat rate. Marvel didn't generally pay extra for revisions. There might have been exceptional cases and so forth that I didn't even hear much about. But generally speaking, if you had to revise something, they felt you hadn't done it right in the first place or something, sometimes it was a source of friction, but that was the rule.
Q: And in your experience on the occasion when pages may have been rejected by Marvel for freelancers, would they still be paid for those rejected pages?
RT: I didn't usually see the record. They had probably been paid for them in the first place, but they weren't going to be paid to redo them.
Q: Looking back at Exhibit 62, which is your Alter Ego 50.
RT: Yes.
Q: And I'd like to direct your attention to 314.
RT: 314. Okay. All right.
Q: And you see that the highlighted part towards the bottom of the page, ‘Stan made it possible for guys like him and Bill to go on working and nobody was looking to get rid of them. In fact, Stan would get angry if any artist to whom he had made even an informal commitment on Marvel's part suddenly had a ton of time on his hands when they wanted to be working.’ Do you see that?
RT: I recognize the statement, but I don't see it. Oh, yes, yes, now I see it. It just took a second. Yes, that's the paragraph that's highlighted.
Q: And you stand by that statement, that was consistent with your understanding?
RT: Yes, it is.
Q: Okay. And the highlighted part below that, can you please read that?
RT: Beginning where?
Q: ‘That was one of the practices of Stan's.’
RT: Oh, let me see here. Oh, yeah, okay. I was thinking it was further down. Yes -- did you want me to read it?
Q: Out loud, please.
RT: Yes. ‘That was one of the practice of Stan that I took to quite naturally. If you told an artist you were going to 'keep him busy,' then you damn well better find a way to do it. It was the writers, editors, and production manager's responsibility to see to it that regular artists always had work at hand and didn't have much downtime where they weren't making any money just because a writer couldn't even bother to come up with a plot when he was supposed to. There's not much thought about that in the field anymore.’
Q: Okay. And is that an accurate reflection of one of Stan's practices to keep the freelance artists busy?
RT: Yes.
Q: And do I understand correctly that you similarly followed that practice?
RT: Yes.
Q: And was that also true with respect to the freelance writers?
RT: Well, their part in that was to get the plots to the artists when they were supposed to so that an artist wasn't calling us to complain and say, ‘I have no work to do’ because I can't do anything until the writer sends me something or calls.
Q: Okay. You testified earlier that freelance writers at Marvel were assigned to particular comic issues either by the editor-in-chief or the -- or by you, correct?
RT: Yes.
Q: And did freelance writers for Marvel have the ability to assign themselves to write a particular comic book or issue?
RT: No.
Q: And was that true from 1965 when you started at Marvel through the 1970s?
RT: Yes.
Q: And do you have an understanding of whether the process was any different in the early '60s before you joined Marvel?
RT: No.
Q: And what's the basis for your belief that it was the same?
RT: Well, Stan was doing most of the writing at that period, so he was mostly assigning it either to himself or some of it to his brother, so he was handing out all those assignments. He almost had no choice. Someone had to do it and it was him.
Q: And let's switch to talking about the freelance artists. Did freelance artists at Marvel have the ability to assign themselves to pencil a particular comic book or issue?
RT: No.
Q: And same question with respect to inkers, did the inkers have the ability to assign themselves to ink any comics or issues?
RT: No.
Q: No. And that was true from '65 through the 1970s?
RT: Yes.
Q: And do you have any reason to believe that the process was any different in the early 1960s before you joined Marvel?
RT: No.
Q: What's the basis for that understanding?
RT: Well, again, Stan was doing the writing. I mean, most of the writing and making all the assignments. He was the editor. And basically, as far as the publishers, they were working for them, so that was Stan's responsibility.
Q: Did you ever hear that any freelance writers or artists had the ability to assign themselves to a comic book series before you joined Marvel?
RT: I did not.
Q: And once a particular freelance, whether that be a writer or an artist, was assigned to a comic book series by Marvel, could they be taken off that series by Marvel?
RT: Yes.
Q: And who had that authority?
RT: Basically, mostly Stan, unless the publisher interfered in some way.
Q: And did you have that authority as well?
RT: Increasingly and in varying degrees.
Q: Why would freelancers be removed from comics by Marvel?
RT: For any number of reasons. It might be lateness, undependability. It might be Stan decided -- or later I -- that they just weren't doing the right job, or even if they were okay, it might be that somebody else might do a better job or that it was a little bit of musical chairs might get us a better arrangement of people. And it could be just any number of reasons that you felt it would work better with a different artist, Stan or I would just decide to make the change. Of course, we had to take the artist's feelings sometimes in consideration, but that was just what we did. I mean, basically, it was our decision or Stan's primarily.
Q: And what did you mean by ‘musical chairs to get you a better arrangement of people’?
RT: Marvel was always accused of changing artists so much, and the readers would tend to think that Marvel's changing artists around from this book to that book just to upset the reader or to change things. It was usually because Jack Kirby could only draw so many pages. If suddenly Stan wanted him to do something else, he had to give up something else. It was just constantly a fight to make the best use of the resources you had, especially in the early days when money was less available.
Q: Can you think of any specific examples in which you moved freelancers off particular Marvel comic books?
RT: Several.
Q: Okay. Can you give us a couple of those examples, please?
RT: Well, strangely enough, they mostly seemed to have to do with Don Heck.The first one was that Stan made the decision to remove Don Heck as the regular penciler of The Avengers for a few months and have a new, returning artist, John Buscema draw The Avengers with me as the writer, because Don Heck was going to do an Avengers annual, it was like two or three stories in one.
And then whenever that period was over, I liked Buscema's work so much that I wanted to keep him on as The Avengers’ artist, so I talked Stan into assigning Don to something else, so he still didn't lose any pay, but he didn't have to try to move on to another.
The other time was when I suddenly came up with the idea in 1969 to revamp the Captain Marvel or Marvel character we were talking about before because he didn't seem to be going anywhere, he didn't look right. And I suddenly woke up with an idea to do something. And I told Stan I would like to take over the book as writer and do it myself. And I already had set a plot at that time for that issue to take over to Don Heck. He hadn't started on it yet, but it was in the mail to him, when another artist who I didn't really know well but admired very much, Gil Kane, came walking in and told Stan that he would like to draw Captain Marvel. He had no idea what was going on in it, he just thought it would be an interesting thing to try to do something with that kind of ‘nothing’ character. Stan and I agreed that Gil should become the artist. We took the synopsis back from Don Heck, gave him something else to do and gave it to Gil. We did things like that, not lightly, but sometimes it just seemed the best thing to do.
Q: These examples you provided, are those consistent with the general practices at Marvel with respect to the ability to move artists around?
RT: Yes, very much so.
Q: And did artists start working on pages for a comic before discussing the plot or synopsis with Stan or the writer?
RT: I can't think of any instances where they did.
Q: Are you aware of any instances where one of the defendant contributors submitted artwork to Marvel for an existing comic book series that he hadn't been assigned to?
RT: No, unless you counted the sample page that Gene Colan did of Tomb of Dracula before it actually got really started.
Q: And that was, I believe you testified, because Gene Colan was essentially vying for that assignment, correct?
RT: Yes, he just sent us like a sample page, and that's what we…
Q: And are you aware of any instance where a defendant contributor submitted a plot or synopsis to Marvel for an existing comic book series that he hadn't been assigned to?
RT: No.
Q: Any instances where defendant…
(page jump)
Q: …contributors submitted scripts or dialogue to Marvel for a series that he hadn't been assigned to?
RT: No.
Q: Are you familiar with the term ‘on spec’ or ‘on speculation’?
RT: Yes.
Q: And does that term mean to you?
RT: It just means you decided to do something on your own, and then hope maybe you can sell it, get someone to buy it or pay you for it.
Q: Okay.
RT: Or something.
Q: And during -- to your knowledge, during the relevant time period, did Marvel buy plots or synopses on spec from any of the defendant contributors?
RT: No, that wasn't our practice.
Q: And to your knowledge, during the relevant time period, did Marvel buy scripts or dialogue on spec from any of the defendant contributors?
RT: No.
Q: To your knowledge during the relevant time period, did Marvel ever buy any artwork on spec from any of the defendant contributors?
RT: No.
Q: And to your knowledge, during the relevant time period, did Marvel ever buy any characters on spec from any of the defendant contributors?
RT: No.
Q: When assignments were given by Marvel to writers and artists, how long did they have to complete that assignment?
RT: Well, it varied. It always seemed to be a rush. Usually it was something on a schedule. It might even already be late. They had a week or a couple of weeks or something, not a very long time. It depended on what they knew of the speed of the artist and what the schedule and the deadline was. That varied.
Q: And but do I understand correctly that Marvel would give them a deadline?
RT: Yes, there was always a deadline.
Q: And who determined what the freelancer's deadline would be?
RT: I was very happy about this when I was editor, that was mainly the job of the production manager. Stan had given that out so he wouldn't have to handle that type of thing because that was a whole job in itself, and as soon as he could afford to hire a production manager, he dumped all that on that position.
Q: And do you have an understanding why Marvel provided freelancers with deadlines?
RT: Well, the books were due to come out every month or every couple of months, and if nothing showed up at the printer at the time, Marvel had to pay for just as if there had been a book or pay late, even if it just came in a few days or a week or so late, they would have to pay what they called ‘late fines,’ and in a day where there wasn't a lot of profit in an individual issue of a comic, that was a very strong motive.
Q: Were the freelancers expected to follow the deadlines that Marvel provided to them?
RT: Yes.
Q: Could a Marvel freelancer or freelance artist or writer set their own deadlines?
RT: Maybe in their heads, but they had to follow ours, yeah. They might be late, but they were supposed to try to make it, yes.
(page jump)
RT: …a year or so, they may have rewritten that and so forth it seemed to me. But again, I don't have any copies, so it's based on 50-plus-year --
Q: Understood. My question is, was there a difference between the language that was on the back of your freelance checks and the language that you believe was on the back of your salary checks?
RT: At the time as far as I knew, it seemed to be the same language. The checks were for different things, but if there was any language on anything, it tended to be the same for a period of time.
Q: Do you recall instances in which Marvel paid an artist their per-page rate for their artwork but decided not to publish it?
RT: There were a few instances like that.
(page jump)
Q: …let's switch to the covers briefly.
RT: All right.
Q: Were the covers usually drawn by the same artist that did the interior work on that issue?
RT: No, it could be the same, it could be a different artist. Depended on who's available or what Stan wanted or any number of factors.
Q: And who decided who would draw the cover?
RT: Generally speaking, that would be Stan, at least until I became the editor-in-chief. But he was subject to various opinions of the publisher who either felt certain artists weren't that good or whatever.
Q: And that's Martin Goodman you were –
RT: Martin Goodman, yes.
Q: And who, if anyone, had the right to request revisions to covers?
RT: Well, Martin Goodman as the publisher or Stan as the editor. Later myself as editor-in-chief.
(page jump)
Q: …supervised the creation of the issue?
RT: Well, Stan did, yes, over me.
Q: Who, if anybody, supervised Don Heck?
RT: Myself. It would be a combination of Stan and I would be the day-to-day, but Stan was the one who was made the assignment to Don several issues before to become the regular Avengers' penciler.
Q: And can you tell if Exhibit 76 has any relation to Exhibit 31, which was The Avengers plot that we just looked at?
RT: Well, yes. Don took the plot, and this is his adaptation and realization of it, taking what I wrote and turning it into what he felt would be good drawings based on it to tell the story.
Q: And do I understand correctly that Exhibit 31 is the plot that you drew and provided to Don Heck for what became Avengers Number 39, which is Exhibit 76?
RT: Yes. ‘Wrote,’ rather, drew. Yes, it's the plot that I wrote out and sent to him for the issue.
Q: Thank you for that correction.
(page jump)
Q: Are there sums of money that Marvel is supposed to pay you in the future let's say over the next five years?
RT: Only if they ask me to do a comic or certain things or if they reprint my material. They're not legally obligated to, but they make their incentive payments there for publishing material of mine from years ago that they reprint. And I get some money for characters that I helped develop that are used in films or TV. But it's totally dependent on what they do, whether they use them.
Q: When they reprint a comic book that you've written, they pay you incentive payments I think you called them?
RT: That's the term they used, incentive payments, yes.
Q: And what do you mean by they're not legally obligated to pay you?
RT: Well, when I wrote the comics years ago, I wrote them for Marvel, and I have no rights to them. But they felt it a matter of practicality and goodwill with me and many other people. They just prefer to pay us a certain little bit of money depending upon the sales of the books that have our material in them.
Q: It's up to their discretion?
RT: Yes. Although, they seem to have a formula of some sort. It's not just somebody who decides to dole me out money. But I'm not privy to every detail of what the thing is, but I can tell that it's a certain percentage of what they get. I get a little tiny percentage of that, or whatever.
Q: Does the majority of your current Marvel income currently consist of those reprint payments or incentive payments?
RT: Yeah. Between reprints and things related to, again, TV or streaming or movie use of characters, that would be the great majority of about one-third of my income that I get from Marvel.
Q: And are those also incentive payments if they use a character for a comic book you worked on as source material for film or television?
RT: That's covered by something else. They started maybe a decade ago called a character agreement, which they offered in which they said they would, when I signed the agreement, they would pay me certain sums depending upon what percentage of it was that character as opposed to some other character and whether it was a feature film or an hour TV show. Some of it comes from toys, models and everything. Models I would have called them, but they call them action figures now.
Q: Are those payments discretionary as well? They're not obligated to make those payments?
RT: No, they're discretionary. I don't they don't have any legal obligation to offer me any of that, give me any of that.
Q: And you referred to an agreement in connection with those payments. What agreement are you referring to?
RT: It's called the character agreement, something like that, from about ten years ago. Ten years ago, maybe a little more.
Q: Do you have a copy of that agreement?
RT: I do. I don't have it here. I have it at home electronically and so forth.
(page jump)
Q: Now, you testified that you started working for Marvel well, you said you started working for Marvel in July of 1965; is that right?
RT: Yes.
Q: And at that time wasn't Marvel the name given for the comic book division of Magazine Management?
RT: It was. I don’t know how formal it was. We knew it as Marvel Comics. But of course, it was just sort a division of whatever of Magazine Management. I discovered when I got to New York.
Q: Do you believe Magazine Management was an actual company?
RT: I didn't see any papers. It seemed to be that was the day that I first showed up at the address there to pick up my writer's test. It didn't say Marvel Comics anywhere. The door said Magazine Management, which is the first time I had ever heard the expression.
(page jump)
Q: And you were working there when Perfect Films bought Marvel, correct, in 1968?
RT: Yes.
Q: After 1968 were your pay checks issued by Perfect Film & Chemical?
RT: I don't remember what was on it. I think Perfect Film, and of course they changed their name pretty quickly the next year to Cadence.I don't remember what was on the checks specifically. It's been so long. It's been, what, over 50 years. I really don't recall. And I didn't save any of them or seen any sense.
Q: And do you know whether Perfect Films just buy the Marvel Comics business, or did they buy more businesses of Magazine Management, to your knowledge?
RT: My understanding was they bought Magazine Management, and Marvel Comics was a part of it. And it was part of the reason they bought it, but I didn't know that in detail. I was not involved with any of that, and nobody ever filled me in with any hard information about it.
Q: And how soon after that did Perfect Films -- soon after their purchase of Magazine Management in 1968, how soon after that did, they change their name to Cadence?
RT: I don't know. A couple of years or so, but I can't recall. It was Perfect Film for a little while but not too long. It wasn't a film company really anymore, so they wanted to come up with another more generalized name, I guess. But it was a couple of years, I think. But, again, I didn't take any particular notice of it because I had no real dealings with Perfect Film or Cadence. My dealings were always with Martin Goodman, who occasionally remained as the line publisher, and with Stan Lee.
Q: I realize that you've written books about Marvel and the history of Marvel, including Marvel in the 1940s and '50s, and about Stan Lee. But you've not been designated as an expert witness in the case. You're testifying here today only as a percipient witness. Do you understand that?
RT: No.
Q: Do you know what I mean by percipient witness?
RT: That's why I said no. I don't know what percipient is.
Q: A percipient witness is a witness who testifies as to things they actually perceived; things they actually witnessed with their senses. Do you understand that?
RT: Well, witness, I wonder how much I had to exactly see everything as opposed to simply know some things. But, yes, I realize it's mainly just for my personal recollections and not for expertise as one on mergers and conglomerates.
Q: No, it's about your personal recollection of things that you actually witnessed. I want you to understand that when I ask you questions, I'm asking you questions based on your personal knowledge as a percipient witness, not based on your expertise as a comic -- as a comic book historian. Do you understand that? (editors note: Ironically, this definition of what a witness can and can’t testify about, which is perfectly accurate, didn’t seem to come into play during the Marvel v Kirby case, where the same lawyer, Marc Toberoff, wanted the court to accept the testimony of Mark Evanier and John Morrow, who weren’t at Marvel during the early years over those of Stan Lee, Larry Lieber, John Romita and Roy Thomas who were and worked with Kirby)
RT: Yes. I'm here mostly for my memory.
Q: Now, do you also understand that since you started work at Marvel in July of 1965, you are not a percipient witness as to things that went on at Marvel before 1965?
RT: Well, that percipient thing still kind of throws me because while I generally understand it, but, I'm here to tell the things I remember, and --
Q: Did you personally witness things at Marvel before July 1965?
RT: Yes. To that extent, no, I did not.
Q: Thank you. Mr. Thomas, I'll represent to you that all of Larry Lieber's works in and question in this case were published before 1965. Specifically, I'm talking about Tales to Astonish, Volume 1, Numbers 35 through 58; Journey into Mystery, Volume 1, Numbers 83 to 104; Tales of Suspense, Volume 1, Number 39; and Strange Tales, Volume 1, Number 102 to 113. Based on the fact that these works were created before you were at Marvel, you could not have been an actual witness to the conditions under which any of these Larry Lieber works were created, correct?
RT: Yes, it all happened before I was there. I was not a personal witness to any of the assignments or the writing or artist or anything. It's before July of '65.
Q: I'll also represent to you that both of Don Rico's works that are in question in the current case were published before 1965, specifically Tales of Suspense, Volume 1, Numbers 52 to 53. Based on that fact, you also could not have been an actual witness to the conditions under which any of these Don Rico works were created, correct?
RT: Yes, I was not a personal witness to any of that.
Q: I'll further represent to you that a large number of Don Heck's works in question in the current case were published before 1965 as well, specifically Tales of Suspense, Volume 1, Number 34 to 63; The Avengers, Volume 1, Numbers 9 through 13; and Strange Tales, Volume 1, Number 101 to 105. Based on the fact that you started working at Marvel after that, in July 1965, you could not have been a personal witness to the conditions under which these works were created either, correct?
RT: That's correct.
Q: I'll further represent to you that a large number of Steve Ditko's works in question here were published before 1965, specifically Amazing Fantasy, Volume 1, Number 15; Amazing Spider-Man, Volume 1, Number 1 through 22; Strange Tales, Volume 1, Numbers 102 to 130; the Fantastic Four Annual, Volume 1, Number 2; Strange Tales Annual, Volume 1, Number 2; and Amazing Spider-Man, Volume 1, Number 1. Again, based on the fact that these works were created before July 1965, you could not have been a personal witness to the conditions under which any of these Ditko works were created either, correct?
RT: If all those numbers are pre-mid-1965, then, yes, I was not a witness to them.
(Amazing Fantasy #15 copyright filing, dated 12 June 1962)
Q: I'll further represent to you that most of the famous superhero characters co-created by Jack Kirby were first introduced between 1958 and 1963. You were not a personal witness to their creation during that time period either as that was before you started at Marvel, correct?
RT: Yes, that's correct. It was before I was there.
Q: And because you weren't there before July 1965, you could not have been a witness to Jack Kirby's working -- personal witness to Jack Kirby's working relationship with Stan Lee or Marvel prior to July 1965; is that correct?
RT: Yes, that's correct.
Q: I'd like to ask you, with respect to a number of different superhero characters, whether you did any work on the comic book story where that character first appeared.
RT: All right.
Q: The first character is Spider-Man, also known as Peter Parker. Did you work on --
RT: I thought we just covered this. I wasn’t there.
Q: You did not work on the comic book story where that character first appeared?
RT: No.
Q: Correct? Dr. Strange?
RT: No.
Q: Black Widow?
RT: No.
Q: Iron Man?
RT: No.
Q: You did not work on the comic book story where Iron Man first appeared, correct?
RT: That's correct.
Q: The Wizard a/k/a Bentley Whitman?
RT: The Wizard?
Q: I believe, Mr. Thomas, you understand my question?
RT: Yes, I understood the first part. I understood. The Wizard -- there was a Wizard character in one of the books as a villain. You're speaking of that character? I want to make sure I'm answering --
Q: The Wizard a/k/a Bentley Whitman.
RT: I don't remember that particular secret entity after so many years, so I don't remember. The Wizard was probably -- oh, there was a Wizard villain in the Fantastic Four. I think, if you mean that character? If you mean that character.
Q: I mean…
RT: It was before my time, but I'm not sure that 100 percent sure that's the character.
Q: The Wizard you referred to; did you work on the comic book in which that character first appeared?
RT: If it's the Wizard that was the villain in the Fantastic Four, no, but I don't…
Q: And you don't know…
RT: He had a title the Wingless Wizard more often. It originally had been something else. Paste-Pot Pete, I believe. (editors note: Roy is confused here. Paste Pot Pete became The Trapster, not the Wizard)
Q: You don't know who Bentley Whitman is?
RT: I don't remember that being the secret entity. I don't recall because it wasn't used that much as a name.
Q: Did you work on the comic book in which Ant-Man a/k/a Dr. Henry Pym first appeared?
RT: No.
Q: Did you work on the comic book in which Crimson Dynamo a/k/a Anton Vanko first appeared?
RT: No.
Q: Did you work on the Marvel comic book in which The Mighty Thor a/k/a Dr. Donald Blake first appeared?
RT: No.
Q: Did you work on the Marvel comic book in which Daredevil first appeared?
RT: No.
Q: Did you work on the Marvel comic book in which Charlie-27 first appeared?
RT: Yes, to some extent.
Q: Describe the work you did on that comic book.
RT: Well, part of it was indirect. A writer who had come over from DC, Arnold Drake, had an appointment with Stan Lee to try to get himself some extra work by coming up with an idea for a story or something, I guess. I didn't know much about it. We were just talking before he went in to see Stan, and he didn't seem to have any ideas. He just was trying to find ways to get himself more work.
I mentioned an idea that I had had back in my days when I was just a comics fan before I worked at Marvel, an idea for sort of an alternate future in which Russia and China had carved up the United States between them, and the heroes were a bunch of sort of freedom fighter characters and so forth. And Arnold sparked to that idea. He went in to talk to Stan.
And somehow, as soon as he mentioned it, Stan kind of immediately just got that little spark idea, totally threw out any suggestion of that kind. And somehow by the time they emerged, and I was not there for the thing, I only talked to Arnold or Stan later, it had come out as the Guardians of the Galaxy, which was a group in which the Earth has been defeated by aliens instead of Chinese and Russians. And there were these gorillas who were the four or five aliens from the guardians of the galaxy fighting them.
So maybe the spark was there, but it was really not my idea anymore or anything like that. I don't know how much of that was Stan was probably the guy that came up with most of it. And Arnold ended up writing it. It became just a one-shot story at that time. And later I was doing backup proofreading and so forth on it. That was my only other involvement with it.
Q: But were you in that room with Stan and Arnold when they were talking about it?
RT: No. I only saw the before and after.
Q: Did you work on the first comic book in which Blade a/k/a Eric Brooks appeared?
RT: I believe I was the editor.
Q: When you say you believe, are you sure?
RT: I'd rather look at the credits just to be 100 percent sure, because I became the editor and chief around that time. And sometimes your name would get put on before and after. I believe that my name is on that first Blade story, I believe my name is on about 90 percent. I'd want to see to be 100 percent sure. But I'm pretty sure I was the editor of that book. I know I wrote cover for it, et cetera. (editors note: Roy was credited as Editor on the first appearance of Blade in Tomb of Dracula)
Q: Did you work on the first Marvel comic book in which Hawkeye a/k/a Clinton Barton first appeared?
RT: No.
Q: Did you work on the Marvel comic book in which Falcon a/k/a Sammy Wilson first appeared?
RT: As backup proofer or anything else that came up, yes, but not in any other terms.
Q: When was that?
RT: The Falcon? Something in the latter '60s.
Q: Did you work on the first comic book in which Major Vance Astro first appeared?
RT: I want to make certain that that is the Vance, I'd ask you a question. And that is a member of the Guardians of the Galaxy? I want to make sure I have that right.
Q: Which one are you referring to?
RT: The Astro character. Is that a member of the Guardians of the Galaxy? You're asking that question in that same story? Because the answer would be then pretty much identical to the preceding one.
Q: The Charlie-27 answer?
RT: Yeah.
Q: Okay.
RT: Yeah. Because I think they were both members, I believe, if I'm thinking of the right character, the Guardians of the Galaxy. And they all came out of that same conference in which I had a little tiny piece at the beginning, but basically it worked out between Stan and that other writer.
Q: I understand. What was his name?
RT: Arnold Drake.
Q: Did you work on the first comic book in which the character MartinXManga
RT: I believe that's Guardians of the Galaxy, I It's the same answer, same situation.
Q: Same as Charlie-27?
RT: Yeah. All of those characters were on the same, and the answer would be the same.
Q: And was the answer the same for Yondu Udonta?
RT: Yes. Yes. Embarrassingly so. I'm glad I didn't make any of those names up.
Q: And did you work on the comic book in which Captain Marvel a/k/a Marvel first appeared?
RT: Yes, I did.
Q: Tell me what work you did on that first issue in which Captain Marvel appeared?
RT: After hearing from Stan about the circumstances of the creation, that wasn't doing anything, just learning about it. But then when the story was, I don't remember anything else before, but when the story was drawn, I looked over the artwork with Stan because he wanted to talk it over with me and see what I thought, et cetera, and I made the suggestion of giving him the chest symbol in order to make him look a little more like a superhero and less like just a spaceman. And then, of course, later I did backup proofreading and so forth. And I submitted a couple of color schemes, one in which Stan used for the character, just for the Alaric really.
Q: The questions I just asked you were about the issues when the character first appeared.
RT: Yes. That's all for the first issue, all those things I said.
Q: So now I'm going to ask you questions about any issue in which those main characters appear. Did you work on any Spider-Man comic books?
RT: Yes.
Q: Describe to me what you did in connection with…
RT: Originally, I did backup proofreading, checking that Stan's corrections were done. And if I found something else that I could suggest and things of that sort with Spider-Man some years later, but still in the purview in '71 I wrote four issues of Spider-Man while Stan took a few months off.
Q: When was that, approximately?
RT: 1971.
Q: Do you remember what issues those were?
RT: Yes, number 101 to 104. I became the second person ever to write the character, which is why I remember that.
Q: What about Dr. Strange? You testified, I believe, that you worked on a couple issues of Dr. Strange.
RT: Well, the Dr. Strange feature in Strange Tales, the two Ditko stories in the fall of 1965, that was the first.
Q: And other than the two Ditko stories in the fall of 1965 that you previously spoke about, did you work on any other Dr. Strange stories?
RT: Yes. I wrote a number of stories in '66, '67, 168 period that were drawn by other people that Stan assigned me to take over the writing of Dr. Strange in Strange Tales in that feature after Steve Ditko left. And then when Dr. Strange became its own title in 1968 for what lasted about a dozen issues or so before it was canceled, I was the writer of those. And I later wrote other stories with Dr. Strange after that, both in his own series or as a member of a group called the Defenders and as a guest star in quite a few Dr. Strange stories.
Q: Tell me about what work, if any, you did on any issues featuring Black Widow.
RT: When I took over the writing of the Avengers with Issue Number 35, a couple of issues later -- one or two issues later, maybe 36 even, I decided that because we could use another villain character in the Avengers. I brought in the Black Widow as she had been transmutated more or less into a costumed character as opposed to sort of the spy-type she originally was.
And I brought her in. I don't know if she was ever called an exact Avengers, but she was in the Avengers book for a number of months. And in the '70s, I wrote a couple of Black Widow solo stories when she got her own feature. And I probably wrote her in a couple other stories here and there. Not too many but several.
Q: How about Iron Man, did you work on any Iron Man issues?
RT: Again, Thor I mostly wrote in that context in the Avengers. By the early '70s, I might have written a couple issues of Thor, but I didn't write too much. Most of the things I did with him were later. He was a member of the Avengers. But, again, I wouldn't have been creating characters specifically for him. It would have been a general Thor or whatever of the Avengers.
Q: I'm going back to your various positions that you discussed when Molly was asking you questions at Marvel starting in July 1965 where you were briefly a staff writer and then it morphed into assistant editor. Is that correct?
RT: Yeah, editorial. We never used the term, but that's a good way to refer to it.
Q: And then towards the end of 1966, beginning of 1967 you became associate editor?
RT: Yes.
Q: And then in mid to late '72 to September of 1974, you were editor-in-chief at Marvel?
RT: No, it was earlier than '74. It was either spring or early summer. I'm not sure of the exact time. It wasn't late '72. It was earlier '72, the first half of it.
Q: No. I said -- you started in mid –
RT: You said late '72.
Q: No, mid to late '72.
RT: Oh, well, it was -- I started – I started not in late.
Q: Mid '72? It was mid or --
RT: Something -- whatever you want. I don't know the month.
Q: Then you left approximately Labor Day of 1974?
RT: Yes.
Q: Then you were paid a staff salary – you were paid a salary for all these staff positions?
RT: Yes.
Q: What Marvel company employed you for each of these positions?
RT: I never really knew or thought about it. I always thought of myself as working for Marvel Comics. In fact, in a lot of ways I told people I was working for Stan Lee. I thought it was a more personal thing than just that. If I had said a company, I would have always said Marvel Comics. But that doesn't mean that that was the official name. It's just what I would have said. Whether the official name was Cadence or Perfect Film or Magazine Management, to me it was always Marvel Comics from the day I walked in the door until I left.
Q: But you were an actual employee of a company?
RT: Yes.
Q: And you don't know what company that was?
RT: There were various overlapping’s, Marvel comics being a part of Magazine Management and then the whole Magazine Management being owned of the conglomerate Perfect Film, which then became Cadence. It didn't seem to me worth spending much time worrying about it. I didn't deal with the executives of Magazine Management or Perfect Film or Cadence. I dealt with Stan. I could have cared less about the other situation.
Q: Do you have a recollection of checks that said Magazine Management on them?
RT: I think some of the early checks said that, but I couldn't swear to it. I just knew I got them. I signed them and never thought about them.
Q: Do you have a recollection of checks that said Perfect Film on them?
RT: I don't have a positive there may have been some of it. I don't have any positive recollection
Q: What about Cadence, same question?
RT: Same answer, yes.
Q: Do you remember the name on any of the checks that you received and salary for your staff positions?
RT: As I said, I think Magazine Management was on some of the earlier ones, otherwise I really don't recall. That's 50 something years ago.
Q: Do you believe that changed in 1968?
RT: Pardon me?
Q: Do you believe that the checks no longer said Magazine Management after 1968?
RT: I don't have any belief one way or the other. I knew that the company had purchased Magazine Management and Marvel Comics as part of it. But I was still working either way, I was still working for Marvel Comics. It's just a matter of who Marvel Comics was working for.
Q: Throughout these Marvel staff positions, you would write comic book stories on a freelance basis?
RT: Yes. That was part of what they called my freelance, referred to it, yes.
Q: And did Marvel have a general policy permitting staff people to write and sell their freelance stories?
RT: Sorry. Yes, they did. They knew their salaries were meager, so they were happy to have us make extra money to be happy.
Q: And did you still write on a freelance basis when you became editor-in-chief?
RT: Yes. I was expected to or asked to. They wanted me to. I did less of it because I was busy, but I still continued.
Q: You’ve testified previously that you would receive separate checks for your salary as a staff member and different checks for your freelance material; is that correct?
RT: I think those were always separate checks.
Q: And that procedure was the same throughout all your positions, including when you were editor-in-chief?
RT: Yes. I don't know when the writer or creator contact pushed it in '74, I guess that changed in some way. I'm a little vague on it. But, yes, I always received both freelance and staff checks up through late '74.
(page jump)
Q: Mr. Thomas, when you first started at Marvel in July of 1965, how many people were working there? Who were the five. Stan Lee?
RT: Stan Lee; Sol Brodsky as production manager; Flo Steinberg, who was the secretary or Girl Friday they had the term; obviously falling into disuse. Steve Skeates, the young writer who was hired a couple weeks before me. And Marie Severin, who had been hired as a production assistant. She did a few art corrections or pay stubs or whatever they needed doing. They were in a total of three offices in a little corner of Magazine Management.
Q: And did they have physical offices? I'm just trying to get a sense of the space.
RT: Well, there were three offices in which the five people, six counting me. I ended up in the office with the production manager…
(page jump)
Q: After Perfect Film purchased Magazine Management, did they have printed guidelines for freelance writers and artists doing work with Marvel?
RT: I don't recall ever seeing any. It didn't seem like anything really changed. We knew we had different owners of the sort. That was about it. But we didn't interchange with them. Stan maybe did a little, but the rest of us did not.
(page jump)
Q: Is that correct or incorrect?
RT: I don't remember if he saw the interior of every comic book. He was entitled to if he wanted to. And sometimes I know he looked at them because he would complain about this or that. His main concern was the covers. But he had access to other things, but we were at the other end of the hall, and I never really heard or saw how much he looked at the interior of the books. But he obviously did sometimes. Sometimes he might do it after they were published and object to something.
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Q: While you were editor-in-chief, yes.
RT: Yes. Less than before. I cut it down somewhat because of having to come in the office five days a week instead of three. But they still wanted me to continue writing some stories.
Q: The two days you weren't in the office, you would write from home?
RT: That was before I became editor-in-chief, yes, as did Stan. That started sometime in over the next few months after I went to work there.
Q: How many days, approximately, would you write your freelance material from home?
RT: Well, that was the strange situation it was usually about two days a week that I was home. And Stan wanted it to be the same two days you'd think he'd want me to be there the days he wasn't there, but he preferred that I be there the days he was. But in those two days, I was officially writing at home, but I was allowed to voucher all of that freelance. I just looked at it as a raise, a de facto raise. I was being paid for the same job, but now I only had to go in three days a week. And everything I did at home, unless it was something specific, Stan was freelance, was on my freelance.
Q: I'm sorry?
RT: Everything I did at home was counted as being freelance even though I was being paid a staff salary, like a five-day salary. But those two days, anything I wrote at home was counted as my doing freelance writing.
Q: And were those two days the workdays or on days of workdays, Monday through Friday, or were they the weekend?
RT: No, it was all on a Monday-through-Friday basis.
Q: Two of the five days you would write freelance material at home?
RT: Yes.
Q: And what was Stan's practice?
RT: Pretty much the same, except he had started earlier and decided I should do the same thing because they could get more out of me that way.
Q: Is it your understanding that Stan Lee was also paid by the page for the freelance material?
RT: My understanding was that he had a rate. I didn't know that much about or what it was or whatever else because he didn't discuss that with me. But it was a similar situation to mine except of course better.
Q: And did Stan ever tell you why he wanted you to take the same days off? Do you recall what days of the week that was?
RT: It was usually Tuesday and Thursday, I think. It was pretty steady, and it was regular two days. It wasn't just whatever two days I wanted off. It had to be kind of a regular thing. I might have varied a little bit. But usually, it was like Tuesdays and Thursdays. He just wanted to get more work out of me.
Q: No, but did he ever tell you why he wanted it -- in the same days he was writing freelance material at home, he wanted you to write freelance material at home?
RT: He said he wanted me there when he was there.
Q: At the office?
RT: Yes. He felt otherwise we wouldn't have as much contact. If I was off two days and he wasn't there, we'd only see each other once a week, and he didn't want that.
Q: Now, in 1974 did Cadence suddenly have writers sign special acknowledgments about the work they had done for Marvel previously?
RT: I don't remember that. 1974?
Q: Starting in about 1974.
RT: They may have. I do not remember any specific thing at that time. It could have been, but I don't recall it. Because I had my own writer/editor contract, and that was about all I went by.
Q: You previously discussed how freelance writers were paid for their pages based on a page rate, right?
RT: Yes.
Q: Was the page rate based on the amount of time a freelance writer or artist had spent creating the particular material?
RT: It was based entirely on the page, whether it took ten minutes to write or an hour to write or five hours to write.
Q: It wasn't based on the amount of time…
RT: It had nothing to do with an hourly rate of any kind, no.
Q: Just to be clear, it was a set page rate regardless of how long it took the writer or artist to create the page?
RT: That's correct.
Q: Do you know how that page rate was determined?
RT: It was determined originally between Stan Lee and Martin Goodman.
Q: And did it vary between the different freelance writers and artists?
RT: Well, people had different rates. And of course we'd get raises. They didn't all have the same rate. I didn't know what Stan's rate was. I assumed mine was lower. Other writers would come in perhaps below whatever rate I had. And there was certainly a hierarchy of rates for the pencilers, for the inkers, even probably for letterers, colorists, although less so because there wasn't that much money per page for them.
Q: Did freelance writers and artists have to pay for their own supplies and materials, ink, paper, their own overhead?
RT: Yeah. A little later I think Marvel started supplying some paper. In the early days, I think they were supplying their own. But I don't recall that much because, of course, I wasn't drawing. I supplied my own typing paper certainly.
Q: And typewriter?
RT: At home. When I was at the office, of course, in the early days, they had a typewriter there for me. yes. But it was my own typewriter at home, yes.
Q: Were they reimbursed for any expenses associated with the creation of that material?
RT: Once in a while there may have been some special thing if they needed me to do and they might have paid for it. But, generally speaking, I just supplied the materials.
Q: Are you aware of Marvel reimbursing artists for the cost of delivering material?
RT: I'm not aware of it.
Q: When freelance material was sent in by a freelance writer or artist, could Marvel approve or disapprove that material in its sole discretion?
RT: You mean the pages they had written, freelanced?
Q: Or drawn.
RT: Well, Marvel then had to decide whether they approved of it or not and so forth. They could ask for a rewrite or reject it.
Q: That was in their sole discretion, correct?
RT: Yes, their discretion.
Q: They were free to reject the material or ask that it be fixed?
RT: They were free to ask the writer to rewrite or the artist to redraw anything that came in that they did not feel was quite up to snuff or whatever.
Q: Were they free to reject the material?
RT: Pardon?
Q: Were they free to also reject the material?
RT: They could reject anything.
Q: If Marvel rejected a page turned in by an artist, were they required to pay for it?
RT: Was who required to pay for it?
Q: Marvel.
RT: Only in the sense that the artist, say, or writer had to redo it, so they would end up paying for something. They wouldn't pay twice. They wouldn't pay, generally speaking, for both the rejected page and the new page. In certain cases, I think they'd be more generous if they felt there was a good reason why the person should be paid. I think they were open to that argument sometime. But, generally speaking, they were just paying for a page of art. And when you got the page acceptable, they would accept it.
Q: And what if the artist didn't fix the page, were they required to pay for that page?
RT: It's hard to say. I can't think of any instance where that really happened.
Q: You spoke about their rights and abilities and authority and discretion.
RT: Yeah.
Q: And previously you testified that they had full discretion to do what they want.
RT: Yeah.
Q: I'm asking you, were they required to pay for a page that they rejected?
RT: I don't think they considered themselves required to pay for a page they rejected, no, I don't think they did. They would then pay if a new page came in that they accepted, they would pay for that one.
Q: If a freelance artist drew a page and Marvel wanted the artist to redraw the page, what would happen if the artist refused?
RT: It's almost conceivable that that would happen because presumably they would have got someone else to draw the page and and then they would have considered whether they wanted to go on employing the artist, I believe.
Q: To your knowledge, none of the freelance writers and artists had contracts with Marvel requiring them to work for Marvel, did they?
RT: No. It was a verbal agreement. They went to work. No one had written agreements, that I know of, before my contract in '74.
Q: Are you aware of artists and writers who would create freelance material while they were working with Marvel and sell that material to other companies?
RT: Well, they were freelancers. A freelancer was allowed to do whatever a freelancer did.
Q: Are you aware of specific freelance artists and writers who did that?
RT: Well, not all freelance artists worked exclusively for Marvel. It was a very informal arrangement. If a freelancer wanted to keep some independence and do a little work for other companies, they were entitled to do it.
Q: Are you aware of specific individuals who would do that?
RT: There were people who wrote or drew for both the major companies, DC and Marvel, or for other smaller companies, Warren Publishing, et cetera, at various times. One example that would not connect with this is the artist Neal Adams who had been mostly been a DC artist, and then came over and began to do X-Men in about 1968 or 1969. But he kept on working for DC at the same time. There wasn't a lot of that, but there was some going back and forth.
Stan liked to have people working mostly for Marvel because it kept the style similar. But you couldn't legally force them. If the person did too many things you didn't like, you just didn't give them another assignment. That was up to what they wanted to do and what you wanted to do. It was a very free market. (editors note: This is why many artists and writers used pen names at Marvel in the early to mid ‘60s. While Stan Lee had no problem with people working for Marvel and DC, DC certainly had an issue with the practice, and would threaten artists with the sack if they discovered they were working for both companies at once. Of course, the pen names fooled nobody, and DC would turn a blind eye to the practice, as long as real names weren’t used at both companies.)
Q: I'd like to draw your attention to the illustration at the top left of Exhibit 82.
RT: Uh-huh.
Q: It's on the top half of Exhibit 82.
RT: Yes.
Q: On the left side, it's a face.
RT: Uh-huh.
Q: Do you recognize that character?
RT: It's a bearded man with a cloak.
Q: Doesn't look familiar to you at all?
RT: No. It looks like any number of comic book magicians over the years imitating Mandrake going back into the '40s.
Q: It doesn't look like any comic book character we discussed today?
RT: Because I can't help seeing that the envelope says Steve Ditko, it bears resemblance to Dr. Strange. But any character he drew in a cloak and mustache would have a resemblance to Dr. Strange and also to Mandrake the Magician and 100 other comic book magicians that existed between 1940 and 1960.
Q: You said this character resembles 100 other comic book characters?
RT: Maybe that's an exaggeration but quite a few. There were a lot of comic book magicians. They were all imitating the comic strip character Mandrake. Sateria the Magician at DC, Sargon the Sorcerer at DC.
Q: I see.
RT: Quite a few. There was a long, long tradition. Almost every company had a couple of magicians, many of them with moustaches and capes.
Q: Did you ever see this illustration, Exhibit 82, prior to today?
RT: No. And as someone interested in the history of comics, it's very interesting, but I've never seen it before.
Q: How about yesterday? Did you see it yesterday?
RT: No, never saw it before. Interesting I'd love to keep it. But I guess I have to give it over here.
Q: Did you know Chris Claremont.
RT: Yes. Still do.
Q: When did he start working for Marvel?
RT: In the very late '60s, he worked there briefly as an unpaid intern, or whatever they called it at the time. About the first and one of the only ones we ever had. Then he went away for a couple of years and came back and started working in the early '70s or something. I'm not quite sure of his history…
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Q: Did he ever ghostwrite for you?
RT: I'm pretty sure he did not. I don't think I had anyone ghostwrite for me in that period.
Q: Was Amazing Fantasy, Volume 1, Number 15, the last issue in the Amazing Fantasy series?
RT: Yes. It had changed titles two or three times from Amazing Adventures to Amazing Adult Fantasy to Amazing Fantasy, but that the 15th issue was the last.
Q: Why did they kill Amazing Fantasy or stop publishing it?
RT: I of course was not there at the time, but my understanding, in talking to Stan, I believe, later was simply that it was based, of course, on the sales of issues going back three or four months before when it was called Amazing Adult Fantasy. And it had been a comic of four or five per issue, little short stories written by Stan Lee and drawn by Steve Ditko entirely, which little Twilight Zone-ish kind of stories with a surprise ending. Kind of cute. And they tried to market it as more adult comics and so forth. But it was a cute little comic, but it did not sell. That's why Spider-Man got dumped in the last issue, I guess.
Q: When you say ‘Spider-Man got dumped in the last issue,’ was Spider-Man first introduced in the last issue of Amazing Fantasy, Volume 1, Number 65 -- Number 15?
RT: He was introduced in that issue. Whether scheduled to be or not, it became the last issue.
Q: Why would -- why was the main character like that, if introduced in the last issue of another comic book line?
RT: There are too many versions, and Stan would tell me different stories at various times, which indicated he really didn't remember. Sometimes he said it was thrown in because it was the last issue, so he'd throw it away just because he wanted to make sure it was published. And Martin Goodman did not like the idea. That's the only part that was consistent, that Martin Goodman did not like the idea of Spider-Man.
Q: What did it have to do with putting it in the last issue?
RT: Well, if they're going to kill off the issue, if Stan had prepared the story, they wanted to get rid of it for economic purposes. Otherwise, it was just dead weight. By putting it in a book, it sort of wrote it off. Now, whether that's what really happened or not in 1962, I don't know. I wasn't there. And I don't think the people there seem to remember.
Q: Martin Goodman didn't like the idea of Spider-Man?
RT: Hated it, according to Stan. Who told me that from the very beginning. And Sol Brodsky had been around at the time, and he told me similar stories of knowing it. Stan said Goodman hated it because, A, people don't like spiders; B, he didn't like it. It says people don't worry about superheroes with problems; and C was that kids and Spider-Man was a teenage high school student could only be sidekicks. They couldn't be the hero of a book. He had never evidently heard of Superman that had been going for 10, 15 years at DC. He hated Spider-Man until he saw the sales figures of Amazing Fantasy 15, at which point he evidently decided he loved it. And they did a book about it right away. (editors note: Superman had been in print for approximately 24 years before Amazing Fantasy 15 was published)
Q: Stan slipped it into the last issue of Amazing Fantasy?
RT: I don't know that it was intended to be the last issue. Stan would say that occasionally, and I'm sure he believed it when he said it. But there's evidence that people have researched very carefully that shows that one or two other stories were prepared, went on the shelf, and eventually combined saying Amazing Spider-Man, Number 1, a few months later was brought back. Whether it was really intended to be the last issue or just became the last issue, nobody really knew because Martin Goodman did these things very quickly and suddenly on a whim. He suddenly saw a new sales figure or had an idea and suddenly would say kill that book. And there was no repeal appeal from that judgment.
Q: When you started at Marvel in July of 1965, was Stan Lee and Steve Ditko on good terms?
RT: One of the first things I had learned in the first couple of days, Sol Brodsky was the one who told me, was that Stan Lee and Steve Ditko, for the last little bit, months or whatever, were not even speaking to each other, which of course was utterly astonishing to me.
Q: How long did that rift continue?
RT: Well, I don't know exactly how long it was going before I got there. That was in July. Steve walked in and quit near the end of the year, so it was about half a year. But the actual situation probably lasted a little longer than that because it was there when I got there until the day Steve walked in and said he was quitting.
Q: Would Steve Ditko plot Spider-Man stories in addition to drawing them?
RT: Yes, he did. And he was credited for that for the last year or so of his term there. It said plotted and drawn by Steve Ditko.
Q: Does that fairly describe what's called the Marvel method?
RT: It was a switch on the Marvel method. Before that, Stan and Steve had worked in the usual way. They would get together, talk over the story. And then whatever Stan finally approved that Steve should do, Steve would go home and start drawing.
But for various reasons, including arguments, disagreements over what to do and things that mostly Steve seemed to be unhappy about, according to things he's written later, they just kind of drifted apart and Sol Brodsky told me and Stan too, that they just got to arguing over so many things.
And Stan didn't like to argue with the artists. And he respected Steve and his work so much and was going so well that he decided one day evidently that they just shouldn't speak anymore. From now on Steve just plotted his stories and dropped them off, and then Stan would dialogue them.
In that sense it was a change because now the idea of the plot, which ordinarily would have been done by the writer, Steve was doing the plotting from the beginning, and Stan wouldn't see it until it came in penciled.
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Q: …the dialogue and the balloons and writes the captions, would that be referred to as scripting?
RT: Either scripting or writing.
Q: Okay.
RT: Depended on -- there was no exact dictionary anywhere related to comic books as to what stood for what.
Q: And when we talked about Steve Ditko, you said that's a version of the Marvel method.
RT: Uh-huh.
Q: How would you describe the Marvel Method otherwise other than that version?
RT: What I meant by that when you said it was simply that Stan was basically sort of assigning Steve to do it and wanted him to do it. What was the exact question here?
Q: What generally is meant by the Marvel method?
RT: The usual thing, which had evolved in the early '60s before my time there, was that the writer would come up with the idea for the story as a plot in whatever form, which would then be penciled, and that the dialogue would be -- and which includes the…
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RT: You're right about how the Marvel Method seems to have evolved out of a matter of convenience because Stan Lee had to keep a number of artists busy. And he was the only writer, so he didn't have time to always write a full script in advance for three or four or five different artists. So he would keep them busy by giving them a plot he could work out in five or ten minutes and then figure that way the artist didn't have the downtime and lose money.
And it turned out to have the extra advantage of getting the artist's thoughts of how to pace the story, and maybe the artist would come up with something extra on it. And when you had brilliant people like Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko, you got that out of them. It developed into the Marvel method. It started out just to be some way to keep the artist busy for their sake much more than for Stan's.
Q: Have you read interviews in which Stan Lee has described the Marvel method that he used?
RT: Besides talking with him about it, yes.
Q: That he used? And in those interviews, do you recall Stan Lee saying that under the Marvel method he expected artists to plot the stories?
RT: I don't recall it. If he ever used the word ‘plot,’ it was rather sloppy because it wasn't plotting. It would have been elements of plot, but it wouldn't have been plotting as I see it. But Stan was like any of the rest of us, you're talking to a reporter or to a fan or something, you can be a little sloppy about the terminology, and you may something in kind of an imprecise way.
Q: Have you ever heard of the name Vista Publications, Inc.?
RT: I think that was one of the various names in the indicia of maybe Magazine Management magazines, too, but some of the Marvel comics that were, yes. Vista, Margood. There were a bunch of them.
Q: When have you heard that term?
RT: Well, first I read them, but I -- as a fan, but I didn't pay much attention to them.
Q: What about -- do you know what Vista Publications, Inc., was?
RT: To me, it was the name in the indicia. And since there was a different name in various indicia, I assumed it was just some legal technicality of divisions of what I didn't know until later was called Magazine Management. For some reason he wanted to have a bunch of little companies instead of one big company. And I figured there was some business reason behind it, but I did not pretend to know what it was. And I never heard Martin Goodman explain exactly what it was. There were only speculations.
Q: What do you mean by ‘indicia’?
RT: The indicia is the little information. It's usually on the inside front cover or the first actual interior page of a half a dozen or so lines of very small types of copy that gives the issue number, the date, the publishing information, the address of the publisher, something maybe about its postal standards and where it was printed, different things like that that's in just about every comic book or was then.
(Just some of Martin Goodman’s many companies)
Q: Did you ever hear of Atlas Magazines, Inc.?
RT: Well, they were one of those two. Atlas, of course, had been the name of Martin Goodman's distribution company. But he may have used Atlas on other things as well. From 1952 to about 1957, he had his own distributor, and that was called Atlas. And that seal was on the comics, but it was really just a distributor seal. Now, whether that was Atlas Magazines or that was just another one of those indicia company names, I don't know. I know some of the names. I don't recognize whether Atlas is one of them.
Q: Do you recognize the name Non-Parell Publishing Corp.?
RT: That one I recognize. Yes, that was another one of those like Vista.
Q: Do you recognize that because you remember reading that in some indicia, as you call it?
RT: Yes. I remember some of them. I didn't know that many. I knew there were a lot of them, but they made no difference. We never referred to them at Marvel, so we just ignored them.
Q: What about Arcanum Publishers Sales Corp?
RT: Yeah. We figured that was probably Canadian American. It's just some name he came up with. He wanted every comic to be published by a different publisher officially for some reason, which we did not know.
Q: What did these companies actually do?
RT: I have no idea.
Q: Did you ever receive money from any of these entities while you were working at Marvel?
RT: I don't believe so.
Q: Are you aware of anyone doing work with Marvel who were paid by any of these entities?
RT: I'm not aware of it, no.
Q: Did you ever see any checks with these companies' names on them, Vista Publications, Atlas, Nonpareil Publishing, or Arcanum?
RT: I'm not aware of ever seeing that on any check, no. Just the indicia.
Q: Do you know of anyone who was employed who did work for or with Marvel -- do you know of anyone who did work with Marvel who was employed by any of these companies?
RT: I don't know anything about anybody having any dealings with any of those. They were just words in the indicia to us.
Q: Did you ever meet anyone who worked for any of these companies?
RT: Not to the best of my knowledge.
Q: Do you know whether these companies had offices?
RT: I was not aware of them having any existence, no.
Q: What is the Hero Initiative?
RT: It's a comic book charity that was started around 2000 that an independent, I guess, basically nonprofit kind of thing, to be a charity to help out comic book people who get into some kind of financial difficulty, need help with health or rent payments or something for some reason. And I've been on the disbursal board…
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Q: Did anyone tell you, when you joined Marvel in 1965, that previously in the 1960s that freelance writers weren't working under the freelance artists weren't working under the supervision of Stan Lee?
RT: No one told me that there had been any changes. And Stan had been the editor during that entire period. The artists and other writers all reported to Stan. And it seemed like that had been the way it had been for at least the last several years.
Q: Did anyone tell you, when you joined Marvel in 1965, that freelancers didn't work on a per-page rate in the 1960s before you joined?
RT: As far as I knew or was informed, it had always been a paid a page rate kind of system for writers and for artists.
Q: Did anyone tell you, when you joined Marvel in 1965, that prior to that, that freelance artists didn't work pursuant to deadlines provided by Marvel?
RT: No. No, they didn't. Obviously there always had to be deadlines. There were deadlines all the way back to the '30s and the '40s, and that part of it really had never changed.
Q: Did anyone tell you, when you joined Marvel in 1965, that prior to that, that Marvel didn't have the right to require freelancers to do revisions at Marvel's request?
RT: No, no one ever told me that.
Q: Do you have any reason to believe that that was the case?
RT: No. Quite the contrary.
Q: When Stan had meetings with freelance writers and artists during the period, were you generally in those meetings?
RT: I wouldn't say generally but sometimes.
Q: What percentage of the times?
RT: Just a few percent. Five, ten. Rather small numbers. There would usually be some particular reason why he wanted me there, to take notes or whatever.
Q: You also mentioned that Sol Brodsky -- Stan would sometimes give you directions through Sol Brodsky; is that correct?
RT: Yes.
Q: Would you sometimes communicate with Stan through Sol Brodsky?
RT: Occasionally. Not so much. If I had something to say to Stan, I would usually say once in a while there would be something that was just easier for Sol to tell him. Or it would have to do with both of them, so I would mention it to Sol, and then Sol would talk to Stan if he needed to.
Q: Why would Stan talk to you through Sol Brodsky?
RT: Well, he was a busy guy, and Sol would want to take all any work away from him he could and interpret it and then get my answer. It would just save Stan a lot of time because Sol very much understood what Stan wanted. He was just one of those people who as John Verpoorten became one of these people who's very good at…
(end of transcript)
(Now blow yer snout!)
Great stuff! Now watch as the people that don't like you start pinching this and quoting it.